Personal opinion on the Pride Month logo

(Aaron Housh) #1

Hello, I wanted to start this off with saying that I am a part of the camp that did want the icon and to show support, I was even there suggesting changes as it was being made :).

With that said, I did want to give my opinion on how everything was handled. I understand this is a sensitive subject for a lot of people, but I also feel that sometimes, there is a need to discuss these things. With the conversation happening in #meta, I don’t believe the conversation should have been locked. To reference the article: “A couple people have mentioned they don’t feel safe voicing a minority opinion, such as saying that we shouldn’t support Pride month.” I think it’s great to be open (and leading) with that statement, but with that said, muting the channel when there was (in my opinion at least) peaceful conversation about it goes against that. By not being allowed to freely discuss the topic (again, in a peaceful way), it is silencing that group. That’s how we get minority groups now, and events such as Pride month should be for promoting everyone as equals (this is applied from here on, but in a peaceful, non attacking way).

As a non member, I read that there was discussion about it in the members general channel, but as I obviously can not see that, I don’t know what all was actually discussed in it. However, also from the article: “As a community, we have chosen causes we want to support.”, where was this decided (again, this is from an outsiders perspective, if it was in the members general, I would not know)? There was at least one member that was opposing it, and several non, but they were silenced. So to discuss: “The community we try to foster is one where people are not harmed. No one is harmed by a Pride month, or by our logo suddenly being a rainbow. You may personally dislike it, but you are free to ignore it.” I do fully agree with that statement, but I don’t believe that people were harmed/offended by the idea of a pride month or logo, just that their opinion wasn’t respected and was silenced, like they are less of a member of the community. There were some valid points that were raised, but they were just kind of brushed to the side, when they instead could have been thought provoking questions that could have been a good discussion.

Hopefully no one takes this post as an insult, or takes it personally, I just wanted to give my perspective of what all happened and as a goal of keeping everyone working together as a community.

#2

Well put. I for one don’t like how the whole thing was handled. They basically pushed their personal view/value/standpoint (whatever you want to call it), and basically silenced (and threatened the ban-hammer) on anyone else’s opinion like it was some sort of dictatorship.

I’m pretty sure 100% of the people come here first and foremost to discourse about gaming/engine/programming… related items; anything else should be off-topic (there is even a channel in discord for it).

As a side note: I’m not for/against the movement - my stance would be exactly the same for any other non-gaming/engine/programming… related views being pushed/influenced on to others so heavily.

I also dislike these quotes from the article:

  • “Your opinion may be in the minority…”
    I don’t see why this should even matter, its an unrelated subject to amethyst.

  • “Will it affect your relationships with team members? Probably. Welcome to our world. =P”
    Thats the definition of the pot calling the kettle black.

As a side note; did I post this from an alt-account. Why? Because keeping non-related view points a side; I like amethyst and where its heading, and would like to keep contributing, and I know for a fact someone will take this way too personally, and it affect my relations with other team members - as quoted above.

(Marco Fruhwirth) #3

Lately, I’ve been thinking a lot about this topic, so here my 2 cents.
I’ve seen arguments against supporting Pride Month because it is excluding people. Discussion on the discord should be about Amethyst, not about anything else.

To me, that seems ironic. I feel like people fear they will be excluded because other people are being supported. Now imagine how the LGBTQ community feels every day…

I am a 29-year-old white male and I often felt entitled to voice my opinion, especially when I was younger. I can relate to the fear of losing privileges.

But as I am trending towards the 30, I understand more and more that communities are not about code and algorithms and stuff, but about humans. The selling point in Rust for me is the way people interact with each other.

As I started to focus more on the humans and less on the code, stuff like vim vs emacs, space indent or tab indent matter less and less. Do you use vim? Ok. Do you use vs code? Nice. Does Amethyst use a different discord icon for a month? Cool.

The people behind their monitors are all different, and many of them are not as lucky as others in many aspects of life. I can see a difference in my work performance when I am unhappy for a day. I can only imagine how hard it must be for people that cannot express themselves every day.

It is perfectly fine to raise awareness and support a social minority. Changing an icon will not have any effect on your freedom. If you want to discuss the topic, you can write the mods, and it was proposed multiple times in the #meta channel. If you feel entitled to discuss every topic in public, you have a basic misunderstanding of how communities work.

A public discussion about whether vim or emacs is better will most likely also result in a muted channel. Would there be a drama about that? Most likely not, since people understand that it is about different opinions.

1 Like
#4

I think you completely missed the point Dispersia mentioned about by silencing one group - you have created another “minority”.

Thats like joining the KKK for the brotherhood. An odd example, yes; but hopefully you get my point here.

If the icon is changed in public, why can’t it be discussed in public? Imagine changing a countries flag, and not letting anyone talk about it.

But on a more related note, if there was a discussion about which tiling algorithm was better, and then that got muted… well that would be a haaard fork from me.

(Antoine PLASKOWSKI) #5

My opinion is that if different Rust community show their support to something, I don’t see why after their disallow to talk about it. Also, as the subject is political in some way, their don’t want we talk about it. But so why show their personal politic opinion with the logo even if I share it ? There start a debate and then blame people to debate. Don’t make sense to me.

What is the point to just change the logo without allow talk about the political subject. Also, we didn’t even have start to talk about it, but just talk about the fact their do it in intern decision. And some people didn’t want that politic enter in amethyst because it was off topic don’t have been treated nicely because moderator are very affected by the subject. You don’t believe me ? The fact we are talking here is a prove. We can’t talk about it in the meta channel because of that.

In my opinion that a problem.

#6

Also, I am curious to know if that blog post (https://amethyst.rs/posts/pride-essay) was signed-off by the “amethyst community”? it seemed more of an opinion post, that belonged on someones personal page. Not to mention, there is quite a bit of controversial language involved in there too.

#7

Do what you want, but that last article that was published should probably be stripped out of all parts that separates people into different groups. It’s creating “ingroups” and “outgroups” and it reads as highly personal, not as something a game engine would ever post officially. It’s basic psychology that once you establish ingroups (LGBTQ) and outgroups (cis het males) you’re actively alienating members from the project. No one wants to contribute when they don’t feel like they are accepted as a part of the community, the same way that everyone else is. Those parts adds nothing to the post except for separating the community, and I’m ashamed to be promoting this game engine if that’s the goal you want to achieve.

(Rudi Floren) #8

As I read it, the post is from Fletcher Haynes, written from a personal point of view. Nothing wrong with that. His name is there and it starts with “I”. He is part of amethyst so he can post his opinion there.
In my eyes you got the in and outgroups wrong (if you want to talk about something named in and outgroup). The “ingroup” is everyone minus LGBTQ and the “outgroup” is LGBTQ. As currently in society. He tries to explain why the “ingroup” should include (as in inclusiveness) all people no matter who they are.
The Cis Hat Men paragraph is just about explaining why you may sometimes get a harsh answer. Its not about alienating members. Sometimes its hard for LGBTQ people to respond in a friendly manner to question from the “ingroup” because they get a lot of really stupid and intrusive questions from other people.
In my experience the “ingroup” in computer science is more inclusive than in other branches thus LGBTQ is a bigger part in the group of software/hardware devs than in other industry branches.
I think supporting pride month and a general openness from most “computer people” helps to reduce the barriers to be open about LGBTQ. This is good!
I am happy with an ingroup (as in everyone) that consists of all people (all people in this group are treated equally) and no outgroup (as in defined by the ingroup) at all. But that is sadly still not the case as different studies and experiences show.

Supporting pride month has nothing to do with treating non LGBTQ people with less respect. It helps to increase an equally fair respect among all community members no matter who they are.

Regarding muting the meta channel: A lot of messages there where not respectful at all IMHO. As some of the posts here as well. Muting was the right way to cool things down.

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(Antoine PLASKOWSKI) #9

Can you justify this ? I don’t like blind accusation.

(Rudi Floren) #10

I don’t feel comfortable giving exact names here. But when I read some of the posts here, some of the comparisons seem really harsh and not very thoughtful. A comparison implies that there is some kind of similarity and depending on the comparison that can imply that e.g. to be part of the LGBTQ community or even supporting the LGBTQ community is like to support X.

Read all posts here again and pretend to be a part of LGBTQ. Do you feel comfortable and welcome with what is written here?

(Antoine PLASKOWSKI) #11

So you accuse all people here, I don’t like this if you have a problem with someone here, report it to moderation. On a constructive debate you don’t use insinuation, you quote and answer. What you are doing is the bad.

the only thing that could match your description is

but it’s already state it’s a odd comparaison.

Sorry but I don’t think you are being constructif blaming people for nothing.

As we are critic about the support of the pride month we can be as friendly as possible we can’t avoid some people will take it personally, so what do we do ? Nothing, we can’t talk because by nature that will not be comfortable ? That one of the question of this thread and also one of the problem. You basically just said we can’t talk at all.

(Fletcher) #12

Yup!

It’s definitely an opinion post. Politics, emotions, sexuality, and everything that goes along with them are not mathematical formulae.

It addresses an issue that started here in the community, and it should be addressed here.

Yup, this is intentional. If this bothers you, I suggest reflecting on why.

(Antoine PLASKOWSKI) #13

so it’s ok to break CoC ? Oo. Also, again insinuation. Avoid that and be clear about your argument.

I give up.

(Fletcher) #14

We are different groups. I’m a dude that likes dudes. You are presumably not. That doesn’t equate to bad. Humans are not homogenous.

A game engine would not really be posting on a blog. If you mean this project, why do you think that? This project is made up of people, a lot of whom are members of the LGBT community. It is personal. It became so as soon as people said we shouldn’t do it.

You’re going to need to provide a bit more factual data for this. I’m…let’s say well educated…psychology, and I disagree with this.

[quote=“Yvir, post:7, topic:894”]
No one wants to contribute when they don’t feel like they are accepted as a part of the community, the same way that everyone else is. Those parts adds nothing to the post except for separating the community

As a community, we have values expressed through the CoC. We do not want, nor do we need, contributors whose values are completely incompatible with the CoC.

What goal do you think we want to achieve? I specifically mentioned how we are sometimes unfair to cishet men and we should work towards inclusiveness. Do you just dislike being labeled?

Also, I’m not sure what promotion you are doing for Amethyst, but thank you!

(Fletcher) #15

OK then, I guess. Happy to talk more if you want.

(Ezro) #16

I’m really late to this party, but I thought I’d give my 2 cents. I don’t particularly care if the board members support the Pride Month / Movement, but I’d be more in favor of Amethyst staying neutral.

By virtue of supporting a political movement, it goes directly counter to the CoC:
“Keep political and religious discussions out of the public Amethyst spaces.”

While I’m not offended or upset by the logo, I think it’d be very analogous to changing the logo to a cross or menorah during the holiday season.

I missed a lot of the drama in Discord, and I can imagine that some people may have said inflammatory remarks, but I don’t think silencing people should ever be the answer. Freedom of speech, imo, is the most valuable thing that a community has. Stripping that from a person, or group of people, effectively marginalizes them which may ultimately lead to a loss of goodwill / faith in the community as a whole.

What sticks out to me the most, though, is the essay that was posted. The essay comes across, to me, as very unprofessional and honestly embarrassing from an organizational standpoint. It failed to hit the mark in several ways and felt like heavy projecting and preaching.

In addition to the essay effectively being an op-ed, I don’t think it should have been a first class blog post of Amethyst. I think it would have been better fit as a personal forum post.

2 Likes
(Kel) #17

By virtue of supporting a political movement, it goes directly counter to the CoC:
“Keep political and religious discussions out of the public Amethyst spaces.”

LGBT people being prideful of their identity is not “political discussion”. And it’s very strange to me calling LGBT identity itself a “political movement” when people under that umbrella have such disparate political views. A major number of Amethyst members are LGBT (including myself) and we as an organization are simply proud of that. By uniting and showing that pride together, we are showing that we are together in our support of each other as an organization. It’s confusing to me that this is difficult for so many people to get.

(Ezro) #18

This is a very long rant incoming, and I just want to preface it by saying that I am in favor of the LGBT movement (for the most part). I have no problem with people doing their own thing and identifying however they see fit.

LGBT people being prideful of their identity is not “political discussion”.

You’re right. But if it’s not political, then why now? Why not start with a rainbow colored logo? Why isn’t that a core driving principle of the organization?

It’s simply because it’s Pride Month, which in-and-of-itself is political.

[…] we as an organization are simply proud of that. By uniting and showing that pride together, we are showing that we are together in our support of each other as an organization. It’s confusing to me that this is difficult for so many people to get.

Okay, but what about the contributors in the community that aren’t in favor of LGBT? Do you not see how this could alienate them?

I read comments that were basically extremely dismissive because “if you’re not with us, then you’re against us”, but that’s exactly the problem I’m trying to highlight.

What if I’m 80% on-board, but there are some things I don’t subscribe to? Or what if I’m not in favor of gay rights at all, but have no problem with “you doing you”?

I have no problem with people being proud of who they are. But it’s very odd to me that this isn’t viewed as purely political.

What if one of the deciding members has a child and they’re very proud of their kid; is the logo going to change to a portrait of the kid?

Additionally, the essay “explaining it” is so incredibly tactless that it spurred me to reset my password, login, and engage in a dialogue.

Let me now highlight my issues with the essay (I’m sorry @fletcher):

  1. The fact that it exists is proof enough that this is political (and ultimately divisive)
  2. “Will it affect your relationships with team members? Probably. Welcome to our world. =P”
    A) How are you going to tell me that this thing that has no politics to it is going to directly affect my relationships with team members?
    B) “Welcome to our world” implies that outside factors (how LGBT members are treated in their daily lives) are being brought into an online community. I haven’t noticed much discourse about LGBT at all in Discord aside from this context, but that could be selection bias.
  3. We Are Not Robots
    A) Who said you were? Why is this even a topic?
    B) “No one is harmed by a Pride month” – That’s right, but it’s clearly an agenda being pushed. What if I don’t think gay people should get married? What if I don’t think a male who identifies as a female is actually a female? I’m already marginalized in this online community that’s supposed to be open.
  4. Fairness - “As a community, we have chosen causes we want to support”
    Right, but it wasn’t the community that decided, it was select members of the community. As a hispanic, what if I don’t want the support National Hispanic-Latino Heritage month but select members do want to support it? (Or vice versa)
    Similar to Pride month, why wouldn’t the onus for celebrating be on the individual and not the actual orginzation itself?
  5. Cis Het Men
    I have a lot of grievances with this part.
    A) “Non-CHMs can skip this part” – Oh okay, I’m glad I wasn’t targeted or anything in a very specific part of the essay in being a “Cis Het Man” and all… rolls eyes
    B) The amount of sweeping generalizations in this entire section is astounding, but my key takeaway is:
    “Imagine being bombarded every day with the same questions […]” – Okay, but is that from the Amethyst community, or is that from your daily life that’s being pulled into the community from the LGBT members? Once again, this could be selection bias, but I don’t see much discourse about this in Discord.
  6. Your Masculinity is not Threatened
    A) What the actual fuck? Why would it be threatened? Why is this an official post that I’m reading in my subscriptions regarding a game engine written in Rust?
    But once again, if my masculinity isn’t threatened then I can be sure to skip this part too.
    B) “If anything, it might give you a better fashion sense” Har har, gay people have good fashion sense. That’s not a stereotype or anything… rolls eyes
  7. A Challenge
    Pride month is great. I live in NYC and I love seeing support for LGBT. But here’s what annoys the hell out of me:
    “Live as a transgender woman for a month […] you will understand the need for it by the end”
    Okay.
    Live as a welfare recipient in the Bronx
    Live as a 100 point buck during hunting season
    etc.

Don’t gatekeep your woes as if the world doesn’t suck in a whole lot of ways that are far worse than the LGBT community has it.

And especially, don’t make it a talking point for the organization as a whole when it really shouldn’t be.

People can be proud of whatever they want to be, and I’m favor of gay rights, but to say that it’s not political (from an organizational standpoint) is downright silly.

1 Like
(Fletcher) #19

You don’t have to apologize for critiquing my essay. =P I’m happy to read feedback, and oddly enough, my sense of self-worth and identity is not predicated on an random internet stranger like or dislike it. It had the desired effect.

So, here’s the thing. I can spend an hour or so responding to your post and trying to engage with you on this. But is it a good use of my time? You tell me.

Did you want to actually discuss this? Are you open to changing your opinions on any of it? Have you read the large number of responses I wrote on Reddit to people who said similar things?

If so, great. I’m willing to risk an hour of my time to talk to you.

If you just came here to post a rant, I think you’ll find that you aren’t going to provoke much of a response at this point. Contrary to what some groups would like to believe, we don’t sit around going “Hmm, how can we make the game engine EVEN GAYER?!” and we’ve mostly gotten back to the technical stuff.

2 Likes
(Kel) #20

I actually about forgot about this thread until it was bumped from the dead a week later :laughing: