Personal opinion on the Pride Month logo

(Kel) #17

By virtue of supporting a political movement, it goes directly counter to the CoC:
“Keep political and religious discussions out of the public Amethyst spaces.”

LGBT people being prideful of their identity is not “political discussion”. And it’s very strange to me calling LGBT identity itself a “political movement” when people under that umbrella have such disparate political views. A major number of Amethyst members are LGBT (including myself) and we as an organization are simply proud of that. By uniting and showing that pride together, we are showing that we are together in our support of each other as an organization. It’s confusing to me that this is difficult for so many people to get.

(Ezro) #18

This is a very long rant incoming, and I just want to preface it by saying that I am in favor of the LGBT movement (for the most part). I have no problem with people doing their own thing and identifying however they see fit.

LGBT people being prideful of their identity is not “political discussion”.

You’re right. But if it’s not political, then why now? Why not start with a rainbow colored logo? Why isn’t that a core driving principle of the organization?

It’s simply because it’s Pride Month, which in-and-of-itself is political.

[…] we as an organization are simply proud of that. By uniting and showing that pride together, we are showing that we are together in our support of each other as an organization. It’s confusing to me that this is difficult for so many people to get.

Okay, but what about the contributors in the community that aren’t in favor of LGBT? Do you not see how this could alienate them?

I read comments that were basically extremely dismissive because “if you’re not with us, then you’re against us”, but that’s exactly the problem I’m trying to highlight.

What if I’m 80% on-board, but there are some things I don’t subscribe to? Or what if I’m not in favor of gay rights at all, but have no problem with “you doing you”?

I have no problem with people being proud of who they are. But it’s very odd to me that this isn’t viewed as purely political.

What if one of the deciding members has a child and they’re very proud of their kid; is the logo going to change to a portrait of the kid?

Additionally, the essay “explaining it” is so incredibly tactless that it spurred me to reset my password, login, and engage in a dialogue.

Let me now highlight my issues with the essay (I’m sorry @fletcher):

  1. The fact that it exists is proof enough that this is political (and ultimately divisive)
  2. “Will it affect your relationships with team members? Probably. Welcome to our world. =P”
    A) How are you going to tell me that this thing that has no politics to it is going to directly affect my relationships with team members?
    B) “Welcome to our world” implies that outside factors (how LGBT members are treated in their daily lives) are being brought into an online community. I haven’t noticed much discourse about LGBT at all in Discord aside from this context, but that could be selection bias.
  3. We Are Not Robots
    A) Who said you were? Why is this even a topic?
    B) “No one is harmed by a Pride month” – That’s right, but it’s clearly an agenda being pushed. What if I don’t think gay people should get married? What if I don’t think a male who identifies as a female is actually a female? I’m already marginalized in this online community that’s supposed to be open.
  4. Fairness - “As a community, we have chosen causes we want to support”
    Right, but it wasn’t the community that decided, it was select members of the community. As a hispanic, what if I don’t want the support National Hispanic-Latino Heritage month but select members do want to support it? (Or vice versa)
    Similar to Pride month, why wouldn’t the onus for celebrating be on the individual and not the actual orginzation itself?
  5. Cis Het Men
    I have a lot of grievances with this part.
    A) “Non-CHMs can skip this part” – Oh okay, I’m glad I wasn’t targeted or anything in a very specific part of the essay in being a “Cis Het Man” and all… rolls eyes
    B) The amount of sweeping generalizations in this entire section is astounding, but my key takeaway is:
    “Imagine being bombarded every day with the same questions […]” – Okay, but is that from the Amethyst community, or is that from your daily life that’s being pulled into the community from the LGBT members? Once again, this could be selection bias, but I don’t see much discourse about this in Discord.
  6. Your Masculinity is not Threatened
    A) What the actual fuck? Why would it be threatened? Why is this an official post that I’m reading in my subscriptions regarding a game engine written in Rust?
    But once again, if my masculinity isn’t threatened then I can be sure to skip this part too.
    B) “If anything, it might give you a better fashion sense” Har har, gay people have good fashion sense. That’s not a stereotype or anything… rolls eyes
  7. A Challenge
    Pride month is great. I live in NYC and I love seeing support for LGBT. But here’s what annoys the hell out of me:
    “Live as a transgender woman for a month […] you will understand the need for it by the end”
    Okay.
    Live as a welfare recipient in the Bronx
    Live as a 100 point buck during hunting season
    etc.

Don’t gatekeep your woes as if the world doesn’t suck in a whole lot of ways that are far worse than the LGBT community has it.

And especially, don’t make it a talking point for the organization as a whole when it really shouldn’t be.

People can be proud of whatever they want to be, and I’m favor of gay rights, but to say that it’s not political (from an organizational standpoint) is downright silly.

1 Like
(Fletcher) #19

You don’t have to apologize for critiquing my essay. =P I’m happy to read feedback, and oddly enough, my sense of self-worth and identity is not predicated on an random internet stranger like or dislike it. It had the desired effect.

So, here’s the thing. I can spend an hour or so responding to your post and trying to engage with you on this. But is it a good use of my time? You tell me.

Did you want to actually discuss this? Are you open to changing your opinions on any of it? Have you read the large number of responses I wrote on Reddit to people who said similar things?

If so, great. I’m willing to risk an hour of my time to talk to you.

If you just came here to post a rant, I think you’ll find that you aren’t going to provoke much of a response at this point. Contrary to what some groups would like to believe, we don’t sit around going “Hmm, how can we make the game engine EVEN GAYER?!” and we’ve mostly gotten back to the technical stuff.

2 Likes
(Kel) #20

I actually about forgot about this thread until it was bumped from the dead a week later :laughing:

(Fletcher) #21

@distransient A somewhat common tactic amongst extremist groups that want to disrupt communities they dislike is to pop up and try to reinvigorate controversial issues. This mainly works if the community itself has not managed to resolve their internal issues with it. We have, by and large, so I don’t think there’s much risk of that.

I’m unsure if this person is actually just late to the party and wants to I have a discussion, or is just being inflammatory. I guess we’ll see.

@Ezro I’ll give you a word of advice, though, before starting down this conversational path. After a week of this, I’m rapidly running out of patience. So you’ll get me in “slightly annoyed and really direct responses mode”. I’ll try to be kind, but you will probably hear things you won’t like.

And while I don’t mind the essay being critiqued, and strong language doesn’t really bother me (but you will be setting the tone for the discussion), and I have a pretty high bar for assuming good intentions, consider this a warning against being disrespectful, hateful, insulting, or denigrating to any member of this community. You will be banned.

If you’re ok with those provisos, feel free to respond.

1 Like
(Ezro) #22

A somewhat common tactic amongst extremist groups that want to disrupt communities they dislike is to pop up and try to reinvigorate controversial issues.

Well that’s an odd thing to say.

I’m unsure if this person is actually just late to the party and wants to I have a discussion, or is just being inflammatory. I guess we’ll see.

I’m a long time lurker, and I mainly wanted to post my thoughts on what I came across today in my Rust news feed (the essay, and then subsequently looking into the meta channel from earlier last week).

consider this a warning against being disrespectful, hateful, insulting, or denigrating to any member of this community

I have no desire to insult or denigrate anyone.

My remarks were trying to highlight why, while I support LGBT and support Pride Month, this is a divisive topic and my personal stance is that Amethyst (the organization) should be neutral.

I’m open to having my mind changed on this.

1 Like
(Fletcher) #23

It might appear odd, I suppose. Have you, or a community you’ve ever been a part of, been the target of groups that come out of places like 4chan? If not, it would take too long to explain.

I’m going to go through and respond to the questions/points I think are of substance. If I ignore one that you want addressed, please call it out specifically. If I think a question is irrelevant or impossible to answer, I’ll say so, and make an effort to figure out what information you were trying to obtain with it.

I’m not sure what point you are trying to make here. Pride month is political. Our focus as an organization is not a specific political movement or movements. It isn’t a core driving principle because…well, it just isn’t. We want to make a game engine. This doesn’t preclude us as a community participating in various cultural events that are important to us.

I’m honestly quite baffled at this false distinction a few people are trying to draw. Some of us in Amethyst are LGBT. We wanted to participate in Pride month by changing our logo. It isn’t the focus of our org on a day to day basis. It really isn’t any more complicated than that.

I am defining “org” as Trusted Contributors, Members, Emeritus members. It does not include everyone who is in our Discord, nor does it include lurkers, nor everyone who has ever downloaded Amethyst.

To answer your question, there were indeed a couple of org members who had some concerns. We talked about it and addressed them. To my knowledge, all the concerns org members had have been addressed.

If there is a cultural or religious holiday or occasion important to other members of the org and they want to change our logo, we’ll probably do that. The guideline is that we will not endorse or support a group that is actively promoting unequal rights or harm.

I’ll give you a few examples from both ends of the spectrum:

  1. We would not support a Christian denomination that has, as part of the doctrine, the principal that all gay peeps deserve to burn in Hell for all eternity.
  2. We would be fine with supporting a group like the Metropolitan Community Church
  3. We would not support the Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists
  4. We would be fine with supporting specific religious holidays, such as Christmas, Easter, etc

I will also point out that some of us are atheists, not all of us are comfortable supporting any religious holidays, particularly given the historical treatment of LGBT individuals, people of color, and others by the Catholic and Protestant religions.

We are, however, capable of separating the institution from the individual, and some of those holidays hold spiritual significance for some of our members. None of our members have moral issues or support violence against us, so we’re fine with it.

Certain groups seem to be pushing this narrative that diversity and inclusivity are somehow bad things, and that we minorities are only interested in making everyone accept us while suppressing their right to celebrate Christmas or whatever.

This is just silly. There’s gay christians, gay atheists, gay muslims, gay catholics and more. Some of them celebrate religious holidays, some don’t.

I’m assuming you are referring to the brief conversation that happened in meta. You are not capable of understanding the overwhelming sense of fear and exhaustion that comes from being a marginalized member of society. It is a near constant source of stress for many of us. A few people had an interpersonal conflict, a lot worse things were happening over in the main Rust channels, so some dismissive comments were made and the channel was locked while we figured out how to deal with all this.

The people involved in the interpersonal kerfuffle have, to my knowledge, talked and worked it out, as reasonable people can do. People in a community sometimes have conflicts. Sometimes they disagree. We’re not all going to be super best buddies all the time. If you’re tired and stressed out and snap at someone, you offer a sincere apology, try to not do it again, and life goes on.

If you want more specific comments, you’ll have to paste the specific logs.

It would depend on what 20% you aren’t on-board with, I guess. This is not a particularly useful question. There is also an inherent conflict in your next question. Gay people literally have fewer rights than you, so we cannot “you do you”.

Because it is illegal.

What you are really saying is “You do you within the specific subset of rights we have deigned to give you”, which is a fundamental inequality.

So, if in that 20% you don’t believe we deserve the right to marry, the right to not be attacked/killed, the right to serve our country in the military, and things like that (I don’t feel like listing them all), then you would not be welcome here. Because you have a fundamental belief that some of us are inherently lesser than you, and worth less as human beings.

I would say the same thing to someone who thought all black people have a predisposition towards criminal behavior as part of the nature, or that women are not as intelligent as men. No one that believes any other human being is fundamentally lesser than another is welcome here.

Why does this whole notion of it being political bother you?

This is a specious comparison that does not have a reasonable answer. I don’t even know what you’re trying to say here.

I think you misunderstand my motives for writing it. What do you think I was trying to explain? Why do you think I was even trying to be tactful?

And please don’t try to lecture me on rhetoric or communication or writing. I wrote exactly what I wanted, almost exactly how I wanted, and it achieved the exact effect I wanted. There’s a slightly more tactless version up on my Medium if you want to go angry again. =P I was convinced to tone it down slightly.

It’s fine to not like the essay. It’s fine to think I’m a terrible, tactless writer. I simply don’t care if you think those things.

(Also, you might consider using a password manager)

Sigh. Politics is not ultimately divisive. Any time two humans work together, politics happens. It feels like you are trying to equate small-group dynamics with the current dysfunction in various governments. These are not really comparable. Politics are not inherently bad. They just are.

I don’t really know what point you are trying to make by saying that, though. People shouldn’t ever write something if it is divisive?

I didn’t tell you that, I don’t think?

This is your privilege talking. Imagine going through your daily life constantly worrying about using the wrong pronoun out of fear it will effect your co-worker’s relationship with you. Cishet people are used to being able to talk about all aspects of their lives and have them accepted as normal.

If you were married to an opposite sex person, would it ever cross your mind that your co-workers might treat you differently if you told them that? That they might think of you as subhuman?

Probably not.

Double sigh. I explained that right below. It is a reference to how men in general really do not like to talk about their feelings and emotions. You’re doing it in your rant, even. Instead of dealing with our feelings and talking about them honestly with other people (which in the tech world probably means other men most of the time), we try to behave like we are driven by pure logic, and that it is somehow wrong to have feelings, to be hurt when asshole alpha tech bro tells you how stupid your design is.

If you want a more technical and less prosey version, I am referring to the widespread problem of social and emotional immaturity in the tech industry.

Open doesn’t mean what you think it means. We are not required to accept anyone into our community. We are open to anyone who follows the values laid out in our code of conduct. Believing that a marginalized group deserver fewer rights than you, or that transpeople are…I don’t even know…making it all up? Lying? Whatever. Those are contrary to our core values.

Even here, you are making such absolute, binaric statements and sweeping generalizations. For example, if you told me you didn’t think gays should be allowed to marry, I would ask “Do you mean churches shouldn’t be required to marry them? Or do you mean they should also not be eligible for the secular benefits offered by the government that is supposed to represent all of its citizens fairly?”

One is fine with me. The other, not so much.

So to answer your question, if you believe in the fundamental lessening of another human being, you simply aren’t welcome here. That will not change. We are not required to accept you. We do not care if this annoys you. Go away please.

You are privy to all our internal channels and discussions, then?

Regarding National Hispanic-Latino Month…then don’t celebrate it. If you have an active objection to it, and you aren’t just “Meh, I don’t wanna put in the work to change the logo, but if ya’ll want to, whatever”, then we’ll have a discussion about it.

Again. We are a community. We support each other.

I see your eyeroll, and give you an eyeroll and a sigh.

Honestly. What are you even upset about about? What do you feel when you read that?

I’m trying really hard to be kind, but the sheer ignorance in this sentence is astounding. And I don’t mean stupidity. I mean actual ignorance. Have ever had any meaningful interactions with an actual gay person? Have you ever even been to a Pride event? A gay bar? Watched an HBO show with a gay character? I’m serious, what has your exposure to our culture been?

I couldn’t even begin to formulate an answer for you without a much longer discussion to educate you in what it actually means to be a member of a marginalized community.

This is another silly question. Rust itself has always been very active in its support of LGBT+ individuals and other marginalized groups. You’re reading about it on an official post because it was something that affected the individuals in the community. This is an example of the emotional and social immaturity problem. I’m having to explain the basics of how to even exist in a community.

Quite a few people said, in both public and private, they had no problem with it precisely because they felt their masculinity wasn’t threatened. So I’ll ask you again for this part, what are you feeling when you read that?

Triple eyeroll. Quadruple even. The second is an hilariously specious example that I cannot even fathom why you would make it except as a joke.

The first does highlight an actual problem, but it is an entirely different problem and discussion. This is another example of an astoundingly high level of ignorance of current sociological issues in general. I honestly think your concerns would be addressed by a few hours of discussion about the basics of sociology.

How dare you.
This is the only thing you have written that has actually made me slightly angry. You have zero clue what it is like to be LGBT in certain countries in Africa, or the South in America. People are tortured and killed for kissing someone of the same gender in the US. I strongly advise you to not say something like this again, as it grossly dismisses the values of the lives that have been lost.

This is where you get annoyed, direct Fletcher: shut the fuck up on this topic.

You are not qualified, nor do you have the right, to speak for this organization or to dictate what we should and shouldn’t do. If you want to become qualified, then feel free to join and participate actively.

You don’t actually know what gay rights, or even civil rights in general, even are, I don’t think. Your problem is not one of maliciousness, or hate, or anything like that, which is actually good. You are simply ignorant and privileged; even your most egregious comment was, I think, born out of ignorance.

This is probably not your fault, and it is something you can fix relatively easily. I can even help you with that. You’ve now been told about the issue, and you can choose what to do about it. You’re even welcome to hang around and talk to us more about it.

But do not ever again diminish the lives of LGBT individuals that have suffered more than you can even conceive. I am not even remotely kidding about that.

5 Likes
(Ezro) #24

Have you, or a community you’ve ever been a part of, been the target of groups that come out of places like 4chan? If not, it would take too long to explain.

That doesn’t justify ~implying that I’m a part of some extremist group that’s “out to get you”.

Some of us in Amethyst are LGBT. We wanted to participate in Pride month by changing our logo. It isn’t the focus of our org on a day to day basis. It really isn’t any more complicated than that.
[…]
If there is a cultural or religious holiday or occasion important to other members of the org and they want to change our logo, we’ll probably do that.
[…]
Gay people literally have fewer rights than you , so we cannot “you do you”.
Because it is illegal.
What you are really saying is “You do you within the specific subset of rights we have deigned to give you”, which is a fundamental inequality.

“Keep political and religious discussions out of the public Amethyst spaces.”

Honestly. What are you even upset about about? What do you feel when you read that?
[…]
If there is a cultural or religious holiday or occasion important to other members of the org and they want to change our logo, we’ll probably do that.
[…]
I’ll give you a few examples from both ends of the spectrum

I’m mildly annoyed that you’re failing to see that by simply choosing not to engage in pushing agendas (whether it’s LGBT rights, holidays, etc.) as an official org, you save yourself a ton of drama while also adhering to your own CoC more consistently.

Also, what I felt was some snarky person who doesn’t know anything about me making sweeping generalizations about who I am, what I know / experience, and what I support, while also pushing a political agenda from an organization that’s CoC explicitly writes:
“Keep political and religious discussions out of the public Amethyst spaces.”

I feel like it’s a tactless and embarrassing representation of the organization, and doesn’t belong as a first class post on the official blog.

You are not capable of understanding the overwhelming sense of fear and exhaustion that comes from being a marginalized member of society.
[…]
This is your privilege talking. Imagine going through your daily life constantly worrying about using the wrong pronoun out of fear it will effect your co-worker’s relationship with you.
[…]
This is another example of an astoundingly high level of ignorance of current sociological issues in general. I honestly think your concerns would be addressed by a few hours of discussion about the basics of sociology.
[…]
How dare you. This is the only thing you have written that has actually made me slightly angry. You have zero clue what it is like to be LGBT in certain countries in Africa, or the South in America. People are tortured and killed for kissing someone of the same gender in the US . I strongly advise you to not say something like this again, as it grossly dismisses the values of the lives that have been lost.
[…]
You don’t actually know what gay rights, or even civil rights in general, even are, I don’t think

  1. Don’t assume what I know, what I have experienced, and what I support in my day to day life
  2. Quit your pathos pandering. You [we] don’t hold a monopoly on tragedy just because it’s June.

This is an example of the emotional and social immaturity problem. I’m having to explain the basics of how to even exist in a community.

How many news feeds do you receive where you read similarly worded articles from a completely unrelated field? I.e., a game engine talking down to its readers while preaching about their political agenda.

Your problem is not one of maliciousness, or hate, or anything like that, which is actually good. You are simply ignorant and privileged; even your most egregious comment was, I think, born out of ignorance.
This is probably not your fault, and it is something you can fix relatively easily.

Phew, that’s a relief. What can I do to stop being so ignorant and privileged?

Also, if you want a taste of the high horse treatment:

But do not ever again diminish the lives of LGBT individuals that have suffered more than you can even conceive. I am not even remotely kidding about that.

I am a native New Yorker. Born and raised. You can shut right the fuck up about me “not being able to conceive” something that was literally born in my own city.

1 Like
(Fletcher) #25

And you’re done here. Bye.

(W. Brian Gourlie) #27

While I don’t support the previous poster telling you to STFU, you’re effectively doing the same thing, just in a far more sugar-coated manner. This community isn’t 4chan, and projecting as if it is does zero good. Frankly, you’ve handled this whole thing horribly and it’s a stain on the community. What I’ve gathered from your responses is that you are uniquely qualified to not only talk about your experiences, but everyone else’s as well. You also seem to believe you are above criticism and introspection.

Not that you’re likely to care, but this whole fiasco has turned me off of this community, and it has absolutely nothing to do with celebrating pride more generally.

(Fletcher) #28

I didn’t think it was that sugar-coated, really, in the place I did tell the poster to stfu.

If you think 4chan does good, you’re going to have to be more specific.

The thing that makes me pretty happy, though, is that, along with the above poster, you’re the second person to complain about how I’ve handled it. I’ve gotten numerous pieces of feedback from people, both part of the LGBT community and not, thanking me for how its been handled.

Some members of the majority tend to like minorities to keep their behavior within very defined boundaries. Black people were told they were getting “uppity” when they wanted equal treatment, for example. There will always be those people who come out of the woodwork when they read something they feel challenges the power dynamics, i.e., presents a threat to their majority status.

Seriously, did neither of you bother to go read my responses on reddit?

The thing is, @Ezro did not want to talk about his experiences. He’s a New Yorker, kinda-maybe supports his definition of Pride, and is annoyed when open-source projects he has lurked in don’t behave in what he thinks are appropriate ways.

He ignored my question about his experiences with the LGBT+ community, and the rest of my commentary about his experiences are a result of his statements that reveal a fundamental lack of exposures to cultures significantly different or outside of his own. And this isn’t based on an emotional reaction on my part. After I’ve had coffee, I can go into more detail on a few of his posts, and how they illustrate that lack.

No, not really. Go read my Reddit posts. There was some valid constructive criticism on there made by a few people, which I was happy to get and responded to. I also edited the article slightly in response to some of it.

I’m not sure how to address your assertion of my being above introspection. Do you think I am unable to examine my own motives, or admit viewpoints other than my own might be valid? Or what? If you really want, ask people who interact with me here on a daily basis if they agree with your assessment.

I mean, I’m not even considering banning/silencing you for posting this. The only reason @Ezro is in the adult equivalent of a timeout (yes, I am intending to liken his behavior to that of an immature child), is because he was actively disdainful about the tragedies suffered by the LGBT community. My reaction would be the same to someone who tried to diminish slavery, or the struggles women have gone through to even be able to vote.

Understand this: I will not tolerate anyone disrespecting or diminishing people who have suffered, fought, and died to try and make things better for those that came after them. They were worth more than that, and while someone may disagree with a specific expression of Pride or other events focused no minorities, or the actions of a specific group, they can do so without trying to erase or rewrite history.

I mean, that’s unfortunate. If you have a specific criticism that isn’t rooted in responses to people like @Ezro, feel free to share them either here or in a DM. As long as they are rooted in fact, data-driven, and expressed respectfully, it’s fine. I actually think there’s things we could have done better…just neither him nor you have bothered to ask, but rather to tell us what we did wrong and what we should do next time.

The assertion that I don’t care is silly. If I didn’t, I wouldn’t bother trying to engage with people like him, or you. Or spend a huge amount of my time this week engaging with people on Reddit.

What I don’t care about is the general whininess of people like @Ezro who only pop up to inflame and demean when they feel their privileged status is being threatened. I care about the health of this community and protecting its members. I think he, and perhaps you, are mistaking my priorities (which are different than yours) for not caring.

4 Likes
(W. Brian Gourlie) #29

I have no desire to continue this conversation further as you’ve made clear that you are not arguing in good faith. The only clarification I’d like to make is here:

If you think 4chan does good, you’re going to have to be more specific.

I didn’t say 4chan does good. I said you’re projecting onto this community as if it were 4chan. The amethyst community is not 4chan, nor is the greater rust community, and it does not deserve to be talked down to as if it were.

(Fletcher) #30

Okey dokey. I confess to a certain curiosity about what arguing in good faith would look like to you, if what I posted above doesn’t fit your definition of it. It feels like that you’re interpreting disagreeing with people as not arguing in good faith.

Ah, apologies. I did indeed misinterpret that. Though that interpretation makes much less sense. I think you should re-read what I wrote, or I can re-write it, as I cannot fathom how someone would interpret what I said as my projecting on to Amethyst for Rust as if it were 4chan…

Anywho, do feel free to ping me if you want to discuss this more later. Or you might consider actively participating in the project. I’m relatively certain your opinion would change.

2 Likes
(Jay Pavlina) #31

The Amethyst team’s mental resources should not be spent on topics like this. There should be no need to defend supporting pride month as it is the humane position to take. I recommend threads like this be closed.

2 Likes
(W. Brian Gourlie) #32

One of the more frustrating aspects of this conversation is that many people did not take issue with the celebration of pride month, they took issue with one or two adversarial paragraphs in the essay that were seemingly out of place in any sort of celebration. Some people have argued in this thread that any celebration of a “political” topic is a violation of the Code of Conduct, which I don’t necessarily agree with (in the sense that celebrating LGBT is a “political” topic). However, the adversarial paragraphs most certainly do violate the Code of Conduct by any reasonable interpretation, something that seems to be conveniently ignored in the very long responses justifying the decision.

(Jay Pavlina) #33

LGBTQ issues are social, not political. I have not been following this closely, but I would think an essay would not have had to be written unless people took issue with the logo change.

1 Like
(W. Brian Gourlie) #34

LGBTQ issues are social, not political

My wording was clumsy—I agree and was essentially trying to say the same thing.

I would think an essay would not have had to be written unless people took issue with the logo change.

Whether or not the essay (in particular, the adversarial aspects of it) were justified, either in the eyes of an individual or group of individuals within this community, it’s still a pretty clear violation of the Code of Conduct that governs the community.

(Fletcher) #35

@ExplodingJay

Thank you.

@wbrian
The code of conduct question is a valid one. There’s a couple of aspects to this I’ll try to explain.

First, I wrote that essay after we as an organization, as well as some of us personally, had been attacked, and threatened with physical harm. The essay was not written pro-actively, but rather reactively.

The spirit of the CoC (I was there when we wrote it, so I can speak with a bit of authority on it) was to try to minimize the number of tedious debates over commonly contentious categories. It was not meant to prevent a response to literal threats and attacks.

If you want to consider the CoC to be similar to a constitution or guiding set of values, the spirit, or intent, is often as important as the letter. This distinction and interaction is present in most legal systems that I know of.

So on to the essay content…

The adversarial parts were not meant to be adversarial. I cannot tell you the number of thanks I have gotten, from both LGBT+ individuals who feel even more confident this is a safe area for them, but also the cishet males who appreciated a more direct approach to those topics.

You are one of two people who has actually referred to them as adversarial with me, I think. The vast majority have said they were “strong”. Which may just be a polite way of saying adversarial, I suppose. You’re welcome to share what parts you think were adversarial, and why, and I’ll respond.

In general, I suspect that some people are interpreting directness as adversarial. I had assumed the entire section I devoted to acknowledging how sometimes it is the LGBT+ community that does not productively engage with cishet people would indicate that. In conversations with a few people, I did discover they…ah…skimmed parts of it.

I also admit I don’t quite understand why the people who have taken the most issue with this are people who haven’t, to my knowledge, been actively involved or contributed to the community or project. So I have wonder about why it bothers them so much, and even if we made every change demanded by them (which will not happen), would they then become active, contributing members? Why this issue, why now?

Anyway, that’s the response about the CoC. While I’ll respond to additional questions for clarification and motivation, this topic is rapidly approaching the point where everything that needs to be said has been said. If the only comment you have is that we were somehow wrong and violating our own CoC by issuing a very measured response to a widespread attack (and it wasn’t just the Amethyst community), then I will just say that your concern has been noted, and to please refrain from reposting it.

The post is staying up, this topic will be closed shortly, probably by the end of the day, and we’re going back to working on the engine.

(Fletcher) #36

Actually, I’m closing it now. If you want to discuss this further, then you can PM me or message me on Discord.

Please do not bother other members about it unsolicited, or try re-hash it in the Discord channels again. It’s been talked to death, and is becoming damaging at this point.

For anyone unsatisfied with talking to me in PMs or Discord about it, no, there is no other option, Please go back to lurking.

(Fletcher) closed #37